Lisa Lacy

Lisa Lacy, author and trauma educator, explains the role of storytelling in healing and why self-trust is key to healing ancestral trauma.

Explore why some healing modalities may work for you and others won't, and the importance of getting in touch with your body to feel safe and grounded.

About Lisa

Lisa Lacy is a writer, trauma educator, and author of the upcoming memoir “Notes From a Certified Madwoman” and its companion “Field Guide: The Psychology of Performance™️”. After more than three decades in corporate education, healthcare consulting, performance, and storytelling, Lisa now speaks and writes about addiction, psychosis, trauma, nervous systems, identity masking, reinvention, and the hidden realities of high functioning survival in women. Drawing from lived experience, recovery, and years teaching trauma-informed emotional intelligence in addiction recovery centers across Georgia, Lisa creates conversations that are psychologically informed without sounding clinical, emotionally honest, unexpectedly funny, and deeply human.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• You can physiologically inherit fear, anxiety, and behavioral patterns from your ancestral line without ever experiencing the original event yourself. Recognizing that what you are carrying isn't fully yours means you are not losing your mind—it is real science.
• Healing is not a one-size-fits-all journey. If traditional talk therapies leave you blaming yourself, expand your toolbox by exploring somatic work, hypnosis, cognitive processing, or peer support groups until you find what clicks for your unique design.
• Trauma survivors often dissociate, disconnecting completely from their physical bodies to survive. Ground yourself instantly by releasing a big sigh out—which safely down-regulates anxiety—and dropping into your chest space to find your heartbeat.
• Even if an ancestor passed away long before you were born, you can actively form a relationship with their memory. Channeling their history into purpose—such as transforming an ancestral story of abuse into community protection—honors their legacy and breaks the cycle.
• Forcing forgiveness can become a psychological trap. Opt instead for an objective human understanding of what limited tools your ancestors had, while taking radical accountability for your own behaviors and creating your own internal closure.

Resources Mentioned

• It Didn’t Start with You by Mark Wolynn: https://markwolynn.com/it-didnt-start-with-you/
• Dolores Cannon: https://dolorescannon.com/
• Multipotentialite Ted Talk by Emilie Wapnik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sZdcB6bjI8

Connect with Lisa Lacy

Website: https://www.lisalacy.com/about-1

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisalacycalm

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisa_lacy_writes/

Connect with the Show

• Website: justlikenana.com
• Share Your Story: If you have a family story or trauma you’re exploring, reach out via our website for a chance to be interviewed.

Connect with Just Like Nana's Website.

A proud member of the Feminist Podcasters Collective.

Theme music by Carter Penny.

Transcript

Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Survival with Lisa Lacy

Amie Penny Sayler 0:22

Welcome to Just Like Nana. My name is Amie Penny Sayler. I am honored to be here with you today. I do want to let you know that in this episode there are discussions of both domestic violence and sexual abuse. So, as always, take care of yourself if that sounds like too much for you. Today's guest is Lisa Lacy. She is a writer, trauma educator, and author of an upcoming memoir. I won't tell you the title now because she tells us the title in the episode and it's fantastic. After more than three decades in corporate education, healthcare consulting, performance, and storytelling, Lisa now speaks and writes about addiction, psychosis, trauma, nervous systems, identity masking, reinvention, and the hidden realities of high-functioning survival in women. She draws from lived experience, recovery, and years of teaching trauma-informed emotional intelligence in addiction recovery centers across Georgia. Thank you for being here today and welcome to Just Like Nana, Lisa. Well, thank you so much, Amie. It's such a pleasure to be here. We love to start with do you have a favorite or powerful memory of a grandma that you would like to share? And what did you call her?

Lisa Lacy 1:43

Well, my story of my grandma is a different one. I never met her, and I found out about her through a newspaper clipping. Uh, unfortunately, we lost her in a DV situation when my mom was just 12 by the hands of her husband. And so my first experience of her was through a newspaper clipping, which was the only obituary that she got because he never even served time in court. And then I came along a few years after that. So when we're talking about the epigenetics of trauma, I've really got some experience in trying to be the cycle breaker there. But uh, she was a very tiny woman, about five feet tall, beautiful, beautiful blonde hair, uh, just absolutely adorable. Uh, but had nine children by the time she was 30 in a day and age where it was very hard to be a single woman for a while during that. So I do know she used to play volleyball with the kids in the backyard. And so that's a fond memory my mom has of hers playing volleyball with her mom in the backyard. And they always beat her because she was uh she was shorter than them even as even when they were children.

Amie Penny Sayler 3:02

Have you, through the newspaper article and stories that your mom has told you, have you at all felt like you've been able to connect with your grandma? And it's obviously completely fine if the answer to that is no. I don't mean to insinuate that you should.

Lisa Lacy 3:17

Well, no, actually, I do feel like I have a, you know, I'm a QHHT practitioner, level two, that's training quantum hypnosis healing under Dolores Cannon. Uh, have performed over a hundred hypnosis sessions. So I definitely believe something else exists beyond us. And I always feel my grandmother's presence in doing what I do. I teach trauma-informed self-defense. I'm a martial artist, belted in three different disciplines. I now teach trauma-informed self-defense in domestic violence shelters in our area, uh, not only to honor her, but to enable women to take their power back. Because if she had had the skills that I had, what happened to her probably would not have happened. So,

Lisa's Grandma and Epigenetics of Trauma

Lisa Lacy 4:03

yes, I firmly believe, my friends, that it is possible to have relationships with our ancestors who have passed on. She's with me, she's leading me, and a lot of this is in her legacy.

Amie Penny Sayler 4:16

What an honor to her legacy and a community service that you offer those martial arts trainings at domestic abuse shelters.

Lisa Lacy 4:24

Yeah, it's a good time. And and it's amazing to see because it doesn't take much ladies, go train in self-defense. It does not take much. And it's so cool to see these light bulb moments of these ladies going, oh my gosh, I could break a finger that easy to get away, right? The object is to get away as fast as possible. So, you know, maximum efficiency, minimal effort, and get the heck out of there. And so that's what we train them to do. But it's a really good time to see these ladies light back up when they realize how much power they actually have.

Amie Penny Sayler 5:05

I would love to talk about your work. You you've kind of touched on it a little bit, but if you can explain your work and how you define ancestral trauma within your work, you've already defined it with the story of your grandma, but how you define it within your work.

Lisa Lacy 5:18

Well, there's a great book if you feel like you may carry some ancestral trauma. If you feel like you're the sometimes we're the black sheep cycle breakers, I'm the first person in three generations on both sides to find and seek recovery from mental illness and addiction. Not to mention the the epigenetics of trauma. There's a great book called It Didn't Start With You by Mark Wolynn. That is spelled W-O-L-Y-N-N. Double check that. But fabulous book, a game changer for me. You may be carrying some things that you don't realize. They did a study that was so fascinating to me, and I'm a little bit of a brain science geek, had to be, because I lost my mind for a little while. And so, in order to get it back, I had to become a brain science geek. They did a study on rats, and they made adult rats scared of the smell, I believe it was of cherry blossoms, by giving them electrical shocks every time they would come near cherry blossoms. So those adult rats became conditioned to be scared of the smell of cherry blossoms. Well, what was fascinating is those rats' offspring were also scared of the smell of cherry blossoms without being conditioned. They were born that way. In addition, the neurons in their nose developed bigger so that they could smell better. So not only was there a physiological adaptation, they were naturally scared of the smell. So, what does that mean for us? That means we can inherit the fear, we can inherit the anxiety, we can inherit the depression. We, of course, inherit the cycles of domestic violence. I did it. My first couple of marriages were not the healthiest, very, very toxic marriages. I was just repeating cycles that I was conditioned into. My mother repeated the cycle of an abusive relationship that we were conditioned into. So not only can we pick up the patterns and keep repeating these patterns until somebody's ready to break them, but we can inherit things that aren't really ours.

Ancestral Trauma and Healing Modalities

Lisa Lacy 7:34

So if there's somebody out there listening and you're like, man, I just don't feel like everything I'm carrying is truly mine. You're not crazy. You're not losing your mind. There is science to actually back that. And that may be a great book to start with.

Amie Penny Sayler 7:49

And then you've talked about, you know, you offer hypnosis. I know you have several books. Can you just sort of talk about your body of work that's out there?

Lisa Lacy 7:59

Yeah, my next book that we'll be launching, I think pre-sell is in October, is called Notes from a Certified Madwoman. And it walks you through the journey of me uh falling into full-blown psychosis, coming out of it. I am a big believer in multiple modalities for healing. Now, some people, I'll give AA for an example, and I'm a recovering alcoholic with eight years clean together with my husband. For some people, they'll walk in the door and boom, it'll work for them. It will be their thing. But if what you're doing isn't working and you're still waking up going, man, I don't want to do this, I don't know how to do this, try something else. We live in a beautiful day and age where there are so many modalities for healing. There's hypnosis, there's somatic work, there's CBT, there's DBT. I did it all, trust me. Luckily, I was fortunate enough because of my corporate education background to afford top-notch care. So if it was recommended to me, I did it. I will tell you, I tried it all: CBT, DBT, neurofeedback, brain mapping, EFT, psychiatry for highly sensitive people. And I was still waking up going, this isn't it. What was it for me was really, really, really knowing who I am now. So the question for me, and that's why Notes of a Certified Mad Woman comes with a field guide companion talking about the psychology of becoming, which I developed. So many times, Amie, we hear the question, who are you becoming? Who are you becoming? How the heck can we get there if we don't know what survival made us become? So the first question needs to be, who are you now? What did survival make you become? Answer that. Answer who you are now, truly, honestly. I'm I went through crazy menopause because of my congenital blood disorder. It was not a fun ride. Made me very edgy. My poor hubby has hung along for the ride. But to really be honest with, are you a little cynical now? Are you a little scared to trust people now? Once you answer those questions, then you can move forward into who and what you want to become. But I think we jump ahead in healing. And and you hear a lot of times too, go back to who you were before you got hurt. Well, that was the person that got hurt. Why would I want to go back to that person? I don't want to go backwards. As a transformational coach, I've always been interested in moving people forward. And I think that's why therapy is a rite of passage. It helps you look backwards to see what happened to you, to see what you survived. But transformational coaching is what changed it for me. I got a transformational coach. We started moving forward. So I recommend multiple modalities for healing if you're the

Lisa's Upcoming Book and Personal Healing Journey

Lisa Lacy 11:09

type of person that one size is not going to fit you. Because what happens is when it's not working, if we are trauma survivors, we're going to blame ourselves first. Must be me. I'm not doing it right. All right. I'm a failure. I failed at this. No, it's not that you failed at this. Maybe it's not built for your build and design. And that's another thing. Become really good at knowing how you tick and click and operate so that you can articulate that to your loved ones. Because I'm here to tell you, once you are surrounded by healthy relationships, your world revolutionizes in ways that you never ever expected.

Amie Penny Sayler 11:51

I so love absolutely every piece of that, including the title of your upcoming book. I just want to echo what you said and thank you for talking about how there are so many modalities and you will find what clicks with you. You will find the right. And that doesn't mean there's one. That means you will find what clicks for you for a certain piece or at a certain time or, you know, whatever it is. And also there's so much out there that's available for free or near free. There's just so many resources out there. So, yes, you know, at some point there might be an investment and it would be an investment that was worth it and all of that. But there's a lot out there that you can explore to kind of find, you know, I think I want to try this path. This is really calling to me.

Lisa Lacy 12:39

Absolutely.

Amie Penny Sayler 12:41

What I love about that process too, because I mean, I've been through that a little bit of kind of, you know, I'm going to try this. Now I'm going to try that. What I love about it is that you learn more about yourself along the way. And I feel that you collect more of your own power along the way.

Lisa Lacy 12:56

Yeah. Yeah. Well, my uh my shamanic trauma coach just introduced me to the term multipotentialite, which is a person who doesn't just have one calling. So maybe you're out there and and that's you. Maybe you did what I did every three years. I would, I would master something. And then when it no longer became challenging, I would get bored with it and I'd move on to what's next and what's next. And people called me crazy for it. But it was in fact that I'm a multipotentialite. And so there's a great TED talk about that if you're interested in digging into that. But go down rabbit holes, yes. And what I love about what you said is the farther you dig, the more you're gonna learn about yourself, the more pieces and parts you're gonna learn about yourself. And you said something important too during a season, right? Because our seasons change and we change, and maybe you outgrew something. You know, AA served me well for two years. I went to six meetings a week for two years, didn't miss one. But then eventually I outgrew it and then did smart recovery and refuge recovery and Dharma recovery. And there are so many, we we are not sure of modalities for healing. And you're right, there are a ton of resources that are available to you at no cost or 15 bucks for a book.

The Role of Storytelling in Healing

Lisa Lacy 14:17

You know, my my memoir, Notes from a Certified Mad woman is the memoir piece. And then the field guide, the Psychology of Becoming is if stuff comes up for you as you read the memoir. And together, I mean, it's 30 bucks and you can take yourself on your own healing journey. I think we're taught to be so dependent on the clinical therapeutic arena that we forget that we are able to help ourselves a lot more than we think.

Amie Penny Sayler 14:45

I'm just gonna share this because it's coming to me loud and clear. It's reminding me of the Wizard of Oz and Dorothy's journey, and she's trying all these things, and in the end, the power was within her. And it's not just that simple. You can't just jump from, okay, I'm I'm at the start and I'm gonna say the power's with me in me and now I'm there. You you have to explore, you have to experience, you have to learn to trust. I tried this and it didn't quite click. I tried that and it was amazing for a while. And now I'm ready to move on. And each of those experiences just sort of builds that belief in yourself in such a powerful manner.

Lisa Lacy 15:27

Yeah, and capacity. Doing all this work didn't mean that life, the external environment of my being as a human got easier. What it meant is I got way, way, way, way, way better at dealing with it. So each time you explore something to help yourself, you're just gonna build more and more and more capacity.

Amie Penny Sayler 15:56

You are a collector of stories, which is fantastic. What does that mean to you? And how do telling stories help in releasing ancestral trauma?

Lisa Lacy 16:08

Well, I went to school for storytelling. I was actually trained at university. I was on full scholarship for performance and storytelling. So I'm a trained storyteller. I traveled the circuit in Georgia for about a year, sometimes little dive coffee shops to big festivals. Uh, you name it, we did it. So a collector of stories legitimately, but also a collector of some wild stories that I survived, and a collector of my family stories too, because a lot of what I experienced was secrecy and silence and shame around what happened and what occurred. And once you express that, once you give it voice, once it is witnessed by someone safe in a safe environment, I would highly encourage people if you're sharing your story for the first time, make sure it's somebody that is safe for you to share, but it gives it voice and it releases it. And, you know, secrecy holds the shame. Once the story is out, the shame can't hold it anymore unless you allow that. And that's why I made a drastic pivotal transition from corporate health care straight into writing. As I had mentioned earlier, I have a congenital blood disease and had uh something life-threatening happen at the beginning of the year. And it just made me realize how precious my time is, how valuable my energy is. My friends, please know your energy is such a privilege and be selective about who and how you share it. Uh, but I had, I did not want to leave with these stories inside of me. So I had already been a writer most of my life, but made the transition

Handling Secrets and Silence in Trauma

Lisa Lacy 17:59

to go into writing full time so that these stories don't go with me because I am the one in the family to tell them. So at stories and stories teach people in a way that, you know, frameworks are kind of boring, and people telling us what to do is kind of boring. And who wants to be told what to do and be given unsolicited advice? But when you hear a story, that's when you can see yourself in it, right? Because they're a teaching tool. So stories are not only a way to help others, but they're a way to release any shame attached to the silence that remained before I came along.

Amie Penny Sayler 18:46

What about the secrets in the silence where you don't know what the answer is? You don't find that newspaper clip. You have this felt sense and you know that there's the secrecy in the shame. Have you dealt with that? Is that where you just sort of play into your imagination and kind of let things out in a way that seems to resonate with you? How do you handle that piece of it?

Lisa Lacy 19:12

I think for trauma survivors, self-trust is one of the most important gifts we could give ourselves. For many of us, our choices were taken from us, our autonomy was taken from us. So if you feel it, trust it, don't question it, don't judge it, don't self-deprecate it into not being, and find a supportive circle, again, that you can share it with, where they're not gonna go, you have absolutely lost your mind. You you really on this healing journey, especially when it comes to ancestral trauma, your family's probably not gonna be your inner circle to support this. So you want your chosen family, my chosen family, not my blood family. And my friends, if you're gonna start to tell the stories, not all your family's gonna be supportive of it because they are resigned to that secrecy. That's how they survived. That was their survival skill was denial and secrecy. We'll get you far, but that just wasn't my way. So, my advice to anybody really questioning and not having the answers is trust when they come, but they're not gonna come like a bush on fire or lightning. It's gonna be when you're being still and you're being quiet and you're really, really, really listening. You know, our higher voice, our whatever is above us, God, goddess, divine, whatever it is you believe that is higher power, spirit guides, it's it's not loud. It's a quiet knowing. So my advice to people questioning would be to trust that quiet knowing. Don't question it.

Amie Penny Sayler 20:56

I want to talk a little bit about chosen family. You might see the white cat right behind my shoulder as we're talking. And when we started, I showed you the picture of my dog who has his own little special, I'd call it a bed, but it's like a big, huge ottoman that's, you know, just for him when I record. So I want to talk about animals because I know you love dogs. Uh can you talk about animals as part of our chosen families and as part of our healing?

Lisa Lacy 21:22

Absolutely. My second memoir that will be released is called Dogs Don't Gaslight. It's a little, little

The Role of Pets in Healing

Lisa Lacy 21:30

more personal about some of these stories. And so it just wasn't time to quite release it. So that's why Notes from a Certified Madwoman is coming first. But it talks about six of the dogs who were witnesses and companions identifying and telling the truth about what was underneath the surface of life. Here's the thing about dogs in particular if they like you, they like you. If they don't, they don't, they never change their mind. And if they choose you, they're never gonna change their mind, no matter what they do. They're very, very loyal. They are truth tellers. More importantly, they are witnesses. I have a 21-year-old Italian Greyhound who closes out the book, Dogs Don't Gaslight. He's still with me. The dog doesn't die in the end of the book. He's still with me. And he has witnessed the arc of a life that I am just now starting to understand. And he's just this quiet little witness to everything, every iteration that I've been for the past 20 years, he has been a witness to. So, and science tells us just petting one of our companions can help calm and regulate our nervous system. So if science tells us that, spiritually, it goes way beyond that. And these dogs chose me. I did not choose them. And they are soul companions. They are soul contracts for sure. I believe that wholeheartedly.

Amie Penny Sayler 22:50

That is beautiful. You know, I love how you were referring to our dogs or our pets as witnesses. That is one, you know, I've interviewed people from so many different perspectives of how they approach ancestral trauma and releasing trauma within ourselves. And that is just one theme that is so consistent throughout, regardless of the modality, is you need that witness. You need that. Here is my experience. I am sharing it. And you talked about having a safe witness. And the idea of perhaps starting with a dog or a pet that feels very, very safe and a soul contract with you might be a beautiful launching pat.

Lisa Lacy 23:35

Yeah. And my friends, witness yourself. We can witness ourselves. Because at the end of the day, it's us and us. It's, you know, I have the best inner circle now. I have the healthiest relationships of my life. I have the most supportive inner circle. But some days, and some days they're struggling days because they still happen. It's me and me. So I need to learn to self-validate. I need to learn to witness myself. I need to observe those emotions instead of becoming all encompassed and swarmed by those emotions. So, yes, pets are great, great starting points for telling your story. And I promise you, I promise you this, they will not judge you.

Amie Penny Sayler 24:30

That is one of their best features.

Lisa Lacy 24:32

Yes.

Amie Penny Sayler 24:37

I would love you sort of weaved it into some answers and talked about it a little bit, but let's dive into that regulation and emotional safety. And I know for many people who have experienced ancestral trauma, who have experienced trauma in their own life, it can be difficult to even begin to understand what is an emotion? What am I feeling? How do I know that I'm even feeling it? How do I know whether I'm processing it? I mean, I'm using that word kind of in quotes because

Emotional Safety and Body Awareness

Amie Penny Sayler 25:09

I'm not even sure what processing an emotion means or repressing it. And I know that your work focuses on this. So can you describe the difference and then how we start to find that emotional safety, even if it has not been modeled for us?

Lisa Lacy 25:26

I think we overcomplicate it and there's so much information out there. Again, all the modalities. Don't go too crazy. I mean, you might get confused if you if you start with too many. I think the key is to get into your body first. Because here's what happened with, I've seen it happen with a lot of my clients and happened with me. As a SA survivor, I disconnected from the neck down. In other words, even as a martial artist, I was I was disconnected from the neck down. I was completely disassociated from what was happening inside my body, even with something as life-threatening as a congenital blood disease. So step one, if you're feeling anxious, if you're feeling depressed, if you're not even sure what you're feeling, but you know it ain't something good, stop. Take a big sigh out. A lot of us that struggle with anxiety, 25% of us, if we inhale first, it's going to make us feel more anxious. So a big sigh out and get into your body. And the place I usually start is my heart space first. I get into my so big sigh out and I just tap into what's my chest feeling like? What's my heart feeling like? Can I feel my heartbeat? Because if you get quiet enough to feel your own heartbeat within your body, you are then boom-grounded. You are in your lower chakras, and you are embodied. You are in your body. And that's where safety begins. Because again, for many of us, our choice was taken. We were violated, our bodies were violated, uh, our boundaries were violated, betrayal trauma. You don't have to have a physical violation to have an energetic violation. They can cause the same symptoms. So, first thing, quick, easy go to big sigh out, get into your chest space, try to find your heartbeat. It's a quick shortcut to help get you back embodied and grounded.

Amie Penny Sayler 27:35

Thank you for that. I will be utilizing that.

Lisa Lacy 27:38

Yeah, enjoy it. Enjoy it. And then you go from there. And then if it ends up being you become a 30-minute-a-day meditator, fantastic. I make it 10 minutes. I'm I'm not much of a meditator. I'm more of a cognitive up here, but we complicate it. And in terms of processing feelings and what it just means, feel what you feel, but be okay with what you feel and don't judge it. See, that's where the shame comes in. You know, so we we do the woulda shoulda coulda. I shouldn't be feeling this, or I should have done that, or I could have done that, or I would have done that. So take what I shoulda coulda out of your vocabulary, take I'm sorry out of your vocabulary. We stopped apologizing for our existence a while ago. But first things first, in order to feel that safety in your life, you must feel safe in your own skin first. And that starts by getting in tune with what is happening inside

Balancing Understanding and Forgiveness

Lisa Lacy 28:38

you from the neck down. Otherwise, a lot of trauma survivors struggle with fibromyalgia and neuropathy. It happened to me, really bad systemic neuropathy. Um, now some of it was menopause related, but some of it they believe was trauma related too. A lot of autoimmune disorders, trauma survivals will struggle with. So really get in tune to what is happening in my body.

Amie Penny Sayler 29:07

Just like Nana, we often talk about, and we mean it, honoring ancestors. And that can be complicated, right? There can be actions that were taken, actions that were not taken that ultimately affect you, even with living relationships you had with people or decisions that were made before, you know, you ever existed. How do you address that delicate not coming from a place of judgment and blame and appreciating, okay, I'm here because of you. Thank you for that. And there were maybe some choices that were not good choices, but they might have been the choice that you felt you had to make at that time. Just, you know, I mean, you can just keep going down this complicated web of how complex it gets. How do you sort of balance all of that when you think about your ancestors?

Lisa Lacy 30:01

You and I had talked earlier a little bit about forgiveness. And I want to tap into that because it's my theory and philosophy that that could be a little bit of a trap for us if we're trying to force forgiveness. So, what I opted for instead was understanding. I understand that my mother's trauma caused her to be the kind of parent that she was. I understand that my own trauma caused me to be the parent that I was. The thing that I opted to do differently than she did was take accountability for my behavior, change said behavior, not only save up for my child's college fund, but for her therapy fund too. We saved for her therapy fund. But look back at my parents as human beings, knowing that they had very little tools, very little skills, very few opportunities to not only talk about what was happening, but then to find help for what was happening. So I don't believe forced forgiveness is the way to go. But if we can get to our own human understanding about where our opportunities for improvement were, then it's easier to look at where their opportunities for improvement were. And also, my friends, you may not get closure. And I'm so sorry. You may not get the apology. You may not get the, hey, I messed you up. It may not come because for some people, especially our older generations, they were the tough it up, suck it up, don't talk about it, just get by. You work and then you're done. So if we can understand that we are responsible for our own closure and many even abusive relationships, the apology may never come. The closure is not going to come from another human. So you have to find ways that make you okay with what happened. I can tell you this: the trauma that I experienced helped create what I do today. I don't believe it made me stronger. I believe it made me a little weaker in some areas. There's more work involved in some areas, but it definitely informed who and how I am as a human and how I respond to others and how I relate to others. And again, for me, it always goes back to those really solid relationships. And a fascinating thing happens on this healing journey when you start. People will fall off. They'll take themselves out. They will. They'll fall off because you're raising your vibration and you're healing. And either they're going to heal with you, you may always be a step above them, and that's okay. Or they'll take themselves out and a new circle is going to come in. That supportive circle, that witnessing circle. Those people, now they're few. You may get two or three. And if you got those two or three, you're really, really lucky. But amazing things happen on this healing journey. And I believe that has a lot to do with quantum physics and quantum mechanics, but that's a conversation for another day. But yeah, don't force forgiveness. Uh, seek understanding for yourself first, and then it's gonna flow easier and accountability. You take accountability, and then it's easier to look at others and go, wow, they're just not there. And that has to be okay.

Amie Penny Sayler 33:29

So this conversation has been so jam-packed. I knew it, girl. I know you brought it. I mean, I feel like I'm gonna have to listen to it four different times just to hear. That's right, there was that too. There's just there's so much in here and just such beautiful kind of starting places for people or not start. I mean, even if you're advanced, but you know, looking for the next step, that as well. So just so appreciative of your time. Is there anything that feels like it needs to be heard as sort of a a wrap-up?

Lisa Lacy 34:06

I always love to end with this. If you're having one of your your struggle days, because they're gonna come no matter how long you've been on this healing journey. My mantra is just one more day. Some days, if I just made it through the day breathing and I'm still sober, then I count it as a win. So some days are still gonna be those days where if you just made it through it and had to go to bed at eight o'clock to start again for the next day. But always, always, always just give it one more day. There's no giving up around here. We keep at it.

Amie Penny Sayler 34:45

And I think sometimes there can be this narrative or idea of, well, healing means this beautiful gold land of rainbows and sunshine and puppies and cupcakes on the other side. And it's no, you're still we're still Earth, and there's a lot of great things about Earth. All of those things do exist on Earth, and we can enjoy them, and things will continue to happen. And you said it earlier, it's your capacity and your skill set for okay, this happened. Now, what is my reaction to that or my actions based on that? How do I move forward with that happening?

Lisa Lacy 35:27

I love that. And it is all about forward momentum. Absolutely. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Lisa. Just lovely to talk with you today. Well, thank you. It was such an honor to be here.